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Topic: The Bellagio Insider?



Mon, 5 Mar 2001 15:22:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: worms

I actually thought the lover in "Wonderful" WAS Barnyard Billy because it says in the lyrics that "a BOY bumped into her wonwonwonderful", which implies it's not a speechmaking businessman but someone of her own age. So that doesn't go with what bellagio said. Furthermore I thought that the girl in Wonderful was the daughter of the HV "hero" who says that his children were raised pretty fast. But if Barnyard Billy IS the HV hero, he can't be the father AND the lover of the Wonderful girl, although, from what is said from America's out west hillbillies, he very well could.

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Replying to:

And who's to say he doesn't originate as Barnyard Billy?

And how about the Indian chant from Worms as part of H&V? Afterall, we have a H&V bit called "Bridge to Indians", why not put it in there? Are there other Indian parts I'm forgetting about?

p.s.- I retract my statement concerning "Alt Whistles" being just a part of "Bag of Tricks" it turns out that's ALL "Bag of Tricks is".

Still don't buy the "Country Air" thing though- nothing except the minor key vamp part that could have fit the Elements. Is it possible that "Let the Wind Blow" and "Country Air" share a common ancestry? It's far more "airy" with the vocal swirl.

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Replying to:

...not to mention the father in "Child is the Father..."

Yeah, who knows, I don't know if he was talking about a connection thematically or a LITERAL connection, but if it's a literal connection, I say: too much.

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Well, the one million dollars question. What's your opinion about a silk trade character, that has an active part in the Smile storyline as a speechman, Do You Like Worms and as the lover in Wonderful?

I think it's too much information to be kept hidden for 35 years. SOMETHING about this character should have been mentioned by someone since '66.

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Probably, there've been folks talking about Speeches and Worms for months and months. And as I pointed out at the time: Mr. B didn't say that "Speeches" was PART of "Worms," only that their lyrical themes were related.

I don't think they COULD be part of each other, the keys and record times don't match up worth a damn.

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One or two days before Mr. Bellagio told us about the relation between DYLW/Speeches/Silk Trade character, some posters were already talking about He Gives Speeches being part of Do You Like Worms. Coincidence?

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Frank Holmes: "The lyrics I worked from had to do with images of people waving from an ocean liner, and native Indians behind that. The lyric went: 'Once upon the sandwich isles, the social structure steamed upon hawaii.' Then it was 'rock, rock roll plymouth rock roll over...' And then there's a piece of music called 'ribbon of concrete see what you done done', which became 'bicycle rider see what you done'. It came from the old standard 'cc ryder, see what you done.' I remember it went on ' see what you done to the church of american indian.' And there was a last part on there that went something like: 'having returned to the east or west indies-we always got them confused...' It had to do with the white man's advancement."

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Replying to:

I've lost my copy of the DYLW lyrics, anybody have them to post up here?

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Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:07:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: bellagio archive

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Yes, thank you for sharing your memories - they are invaluable! But you ain't done yet!!! Some serious questions:

- Is Heroes and Villains the only Smile track you heard that was completed or near completion? If there are others (Do You Like Worms, Surf's Up, heck - the whole lot of 'em!), please fill us in.

- Did you see any tapes get wiped? If so, was this done in 66/67 or was it later?

- How long did H&V run for approximately? (sorry if you mentioned this before - I didn't see it w/ my one good eye)

- I think you mentioned I'm in Great Shape as being part of H&V; any know-how as to why it's listed separately on the jacket sleeve?

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I'm pretty sure the third verse was "the jive to survive" lyric (but mind you, it has been years!) and from what I recall of "the comedy sketch" it went something like this:

Our "hero", (hint: his initials are BB) strolls into town and comes to the defense of his true love in a hilarious barroom brawl. The local officials break it up sending our poor, broken-hearted boy back to his much simpler (and safer) life on the farm.

Every version of the song that I've heard since, lacks the depth and daring of this track. And who really knows if an acetate was ever made or not. I'm pretty certain though that Brian wiped the masters.

My memories of "Elements" is a bit sketchy but this is how I always understood it to break down so bear with me: Fire is obvious and definitly the first section of the piece, followed correctly by the woodshop song representing the (drum roll please) earth section (earth noises representing "life" as Brian put it). End of mystery.

I can safely assume that what was to follow was the "air" section which was not unlike "Country Air" (mind you I never heard a recorded version but simply Brian playing it for us on the piano and describing these wild sound effects all around that he planned to use). That segued nicely into a piano version of Dada (which he did obviously record later). It was my understanding that he was considering splicing the finished "water chant" somewhere into it the middle of it, not unlike the final version of "Cool,cool water". However, we never knew cause, god only knows, he was ALWAYS changing his mind.

Date: 02/19/01 04:45:59 PM
Name: Mr B

Email: Subject: You guys are impressive!

My apologies for being mysterious and elusive. But keep in mind that I'm not interested in being known as the one who blew the lid off of Smile. I'll leave that to Brian himself.

I must state that I am thoroughly impressed with the immense knowledge and understanding that you guys have for this album. It is a testimony to its greatness. I am fairly new to the board so you could imagine my excitement upon finding it.

Unfortunatly however, I am not the right one to ask for exact dates, which song was in which key or some long forgotten specific for some long forgotten track. Keep in mind that it was 35 years ago...not to mention the psychedelic 60's! However from the memories I've been able to muster, I am enjoying leading you guys in the right direction, at the very least.

That said, I want to mention that the idea of "He Gives Speeches" was tied to the silk traders of Do You Like Worms (I remember it with the bicycle rider outro music though). I think the lyric was indeed evoking Mark-Twain imagery and was directly connected to the girl in Wonderful, whom he later violated and bore Child.

till next time...

B

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Would that be Barnyard Billy (who loved his chickens)?

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Okay - quickly - succinctly - here's my theory; thanks to Bellagio Insider's recent insight and some nagging questions that have dogged me - such as this - here is what I've come up with:

The whole black key/white key side is all wrong. It's not an Americana/Elemental thing. Originally, it was all going to go together as one big tapestry. If Barnyard Billy was Heroes and Villains, he dug hanging out on his farm. Barnyard may have led to Vegetables then, or Vega-Tables. How? Well, I believe Andy Paley once described Brian Wilson's style of composition as "always moving upward, as if toward God" or something like that. Heroes and Villains = C#. Heroes and Villains vocal sections/Part 2 = D#. Vega-Tables = E. FIRE = F. This explains a lot of things, like how With Me Tonight & Mama Says seem to have been part of Heroes and Villains and Vega-Tables according to tape boxes and recordings. Now, obviously there's still alot of gaps to this theory, like where do the other songs fit in. Some tracks - like Water Chant - are also not in the right key to fit the theory. It's also admittedly somewhat preposterous that the whole album would have just kept modulating. Still, it explains more questions than it raises IMO, and even if I'm half wrong I think it possible I'm more than half right, too.

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"Eggs & Grits" is "I'm In Great Shape". Like everything else, it grew out of "Heroes & Villains". I wouldn't be surprised, though, if "Mama Says" was the tag to "I'm In Great Shape". Two or three sections, right?

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Well, if B Insider is right then it's good news to me as I've always been, in a manner of speaking, a Dada-ist. Couple of things though:

1. Brian said in the Sunflower re-issue notes that he wrote Cool, Cool Water in March 67. Da Da, as far as we know, was first tracked in May. OK, so BW's recollections aren't always reliable. But I'm just wondering if there may have been an intention to dub some Cool Water lyrics/vocals on the Da Da track? The last session was cancelled, hmmm?

2. So if Eggs n' Grits in part of H&V, IWBA/Woodchop is Earth then by a process of elimination I'm In Great Shape should be....

DO A LOT / MAMA SAYS!

Wasn't it Dez who found that tape labelled IIGS with those two Mama Says pieces on? What sez Dez on the subject?

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On the SMiLE sleeve, there is a seperate song listed called "I'm In Great Shape."

Now, right around December 1966 Brian recorded a bunch of new sections for H&V -- a new "insert" (or two or three), a new fade, basically a bunch of new stuff, almost an entirely new song.

Can we assume that whatever caused Brian to ditch the "Barnyard Billy" version also had him putting the "Barnyard", "eggs and grits" and maybe comedy stuff into a seperate song, calling it "Great Shape," and then attempting to re-construct H&V, almost from scratch?

It makes sense with the chronology, I guess I'm looking for a yay or nay.

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bellagio stuff
Subject: Re: Re: Please re-post the Bellagio post

The main gists of Bellagio's posts (feel free to add or correct, people):

- Heroes and Villains, as per the demo version on Endless Harmony, had a "comedy skit" that was eventually replaced by the "part 2" vocal sections & later the "cantina" section (?), which helped tie together the story of the main character, Barnyard Billy, and how he winds up on the farm ("barnyard")

- I'm in Great Shape is the "eggs & grits" part of the H&V demo, taken out to be a seperate song (there are date discrepencies here, but whatever - nothing serious, just the 1st recording for "Shape" - vocals only - was October & the demo was done in November. This tape is apparently missing) and maybe including "barnyard" & "do alot", as well as the comedy skit

- The Elements is Fire (Fire), Earth (Friday Night), Air (piano piece that maybe became Country Air), and Water (piano version of Love To Say Dada), with maybe some sound effects & the water chant thrown in for good measure.

I think that's about it. Most of these theories, apart from the skit, are supportable in one way or another. DId I miss anything?



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