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Topic: Track Listings & Release Dates?



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I don't know that there was a Dec. 15 expectation for H&V. TeenSet said that the album and single "must be completed by Christmas" but it doesn't say if that was a Brian expectation or a Capitol expectation. The album number seems to show that Capitol had been expecting SMiLE to be finished anytime since late August/September '66. Brian said that "all 12 songs were written" in late October '66, so *the* list could have been written even by then I suppose, although I think the proof with *the* list wasn't done untill Nov. 14 or after.

Those tour dates for England were set by August '66 so Brian had plenty of time to schedule the work on H&V before them, since it was the first song written. I assume he didn't have H&V ready for tracking until too late in Oct too avoid the tour.

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I've always thought the same thing. I've always just assumed that it was put in for a little time to hear how it sounded and then taken out quickly and after Nov. 4th, was my best guess and the tracklist was submitted in the middle to the end of November. That was my guess. But with what Bellagio Insider said about it, we now have to grapple with the idea of Brian possibly having recorded an entire version (instruemntal at least) of the "baryard Billy" H&V. He may be wrong completely about a version of that. But if he's right, I don't see any other way it could have been started again until mid-December. That doesn't mean it couldn't have been mixed and abandoned earlier, but wouldn't Brian have know it early enough to not set a Dec. 15th date if he didn't like the "Baryard Billy" version as early as Nov. 5th or 6th?

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I don't think it proves anything one way or another. I've probably been saying *the* list when I should say *a* list because, as Brad has pointed out, we have no idea if *the* list we know was what actually ended up on the back of the jackets made. I'm working on that as are others probably.

I think *the* list was still valid after Nov. 14 when the memo to change the front liner from stereophonic to duophonic was sent and the back liner shows it was laid out with duophonic. Now that "proof" was marked up for revision, as Brad and Peter Reum, tell us but with no apparent changes to *the* list. That revision would have taken a few days to a week, so *the* list could have been valid as late as the 3rd week in November. That leaves alot of time to substitute *a* new list.

Now I think it's possible/probable that *the* list wasn't written until after Nov 30 because My Only Sunshine was Brian's reference title for that song up until then and not OMP. But there is no proof to support that. That still leaves room for substitution of a new track list.

On the other hand, we have no assurance that "eggs and grits"/IIGS was still a part of H&V past Nov 4, if it ever was. As far as we know, it could have been considered on Nov. 4 for a few hours and broken out on Nov. 5, if Brian even meant it was a part of H&V. Still alot of questions in my mind.

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Right. Which actually puts the list at AFTER the 13th, I'd think.

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I'm just curious about the 12/13 date for realizing that he didn't want to use the old H&V (Barnyard Billy version). If that list was indeed written sometime between the middle of Novemeber-early December, then that would mean that "Great Shape" was already taken out. Which doesn't make sense if Brian decided it wasn't right around 12/13. Do you see what I'm saying? He cancelled on asked for more time in completing H&V, probably on 12/13, but that in itself would indicate, I presume, that H&V still had "Great Shape" and "Barnyard" in it at that point. If it turned its corner on 12/13, then I would think that would be when "Great Shape" was separated. Maybe he was thinking of separating it before that, but it probably wasn't actually solidified until he heard that mixdown and decided it wasn't what he wanted.

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Re: H&V, my opinion is it turned a corner on or shortly after 12/13, as soon as Brian made mixes of the Oct tracking and 12/13 vocals and discovered he didn't like it for whatever reason. I wouldn't put the emphasis on the Boys returning, they were back in LA right after a traditional Thanksgiving concert on the East coast I believe, but on the Boys being back and available to record the vocals so Brian could hear what he had. The TeenSet article tells us they were all working their butts off to have H&V done before Xmas.

Re: the list, it could have been written as late as late Dec. but I think Capitol would have wanted it in hand on Dec. 8 when PO for the booklets was requested. So I feel that the list was either written or was still valid after Nov. 14 and before early Dec. if the list we know wasn't revised and a new list stripped in for submission by Dec.8. In other words, I don't know.

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.....he had to tell them that it wouldn't be ready between the 9th and the 16th because it would be ready for the Christmas release that it was slated to be. Just wanted to clarify there.

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**My guess is H&V turned a corner on or just after 12/13 when Brian had vocals for his October tracking and could do mix-downs and study acetates at home.**

Which co-incides with the return of the Beach Boys. Maybe Brian felt he couldn't actually play THAT mixdown to them because they just weren't ready for it. Or maybe they heard it and there wasn't enough boy/girl. Or, of course, he just didn't like it.

**Before 12/16 anyway when he had informed Engemann that the single wouldn't be ready til mid January. That would allow a few days to come up with a new arrangement and book some musicians and studio time on short notice [or maybe use pre-booked studio time which had been for something else].**

So, literally, just as the Beach Boys were returning from Europe, Brian had decided that it was no good, scrapped the idea and decided to push the date of release back and re-record the various sections. I'm actually thinking right now that it would be hard to actually blame the Beach Boys for not liking that version of H&V if Brian was still going to keep it and use it in another song. So, that wouldn't make sense. I'm pretty certain that it was Brian that didn't like it.

**After discussions with Capitol art directors and production persons I think all the artwork would have been due by Dec 9 [if that is the date on that memo], though the back cover art could have still been timely some days later since Production already knew on Dec. 9th that the booklets wouldn't be ready until early January anyway and printing the back cover liners and assembling them with the front cover lithos and cardboard jacket only took 3 days [rule-of-thumb] and then a few days to ship to where all would be collated with LP and booklet etc. If I understood it correctly.**

So, around the 9th to the 16th, Brian probably changed his mind about his mix of H&V and decided to turn it into two tracks: H&V (new mix) and "Great Shape".

**So theoretically the jackets with "list" liners could have been ordered as late as late Dec/very early January with art that had been revised and comped and a plate made and shipped from a "list" with IIGS and H&V could have been provided by Brian as late as Dec. 20-23 [give or take] and still been on time with the booklets. Assuming the "list" wasn't written back in mid October and that Capitol would allow or wait for Brian to shave it so close. JMO.**

Which again, means that he had to decide around the 9th to the 16th of December. I say that because even if he handed the list in on the 20th-23rd, he still was recording new instrumental parts on the 19th, so presumably he had to releaize that he was unsatisfied with it at least one day before that (18th), but more likely between the 9th and the 16th, because he had to tell Capitol that it wouldn't be ready.

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My guess is H&V turned a corner on or just after 12/13 when Brian had vocals for his October tracking and could do mix-downs and study acetates at home. Before 12/16 anyway when he had informed Engemann that the single wouldn't be ready til mid January. That would allow a few days to come up with a new arrangement and book some musicians and studio time on short notice [or maybe use pre-booked studio time which had been for something else].

After discussions with Capitol art directors and production persons I think all the artwork would have been due by Dec 9 [if that is the date on that memo], though the back cover art could have still been timely some days later since Production already knew on Dec. 9th that the booklets wouldn't be ready until early January anyway and printing the back cover liners and assembling them with the front cover lithos and cardboard jacket only took 3 days [rule-of-thumb] and then a few days to ship to where all would be collated with LP and booklet etc. If I understood it correctly.

So theoretically the jackets with "list" liners could have been ordered as late as late Dec/very early January with art that had been revised and comped and a plate made and shipped from a "list" with IIGS and H&V could have been provided by Brian as late as Dec. 20-23 [give or take] and still been on time with the booklets. Assuming the "list" wasn't written back in mid October and that Capitol would allow or wait for Brian to shave it so close. JMO.

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Do you see what I'm getting at? I'm curious as to how Brian could ditch a finished first version or erase it, if there never was a complete one to begin with!

Here's my thinking:

There was a tracklist handed in. Presumably, that list had to be handed in, at the latest, in early December, because there was a December 15th release date set.

Brian informed the Capitol people that H&V was not ready and the album would be out on the 15th of January. That also had to happen before the 15th of December. Now, it is certain (as certain as can be) that December 19th was when he started again on H&V. But when was he dissatisfied with the first version? If, by the beginning of December, he had "Great Shape" as a separate track on the submitted track listing, then he must have not liked the mix that he heard sometime in late Novemeber/early December. Hence, the midown that he wasn't happy with could have only been either an instrumental mix, with partially finished vocals or guide vocals by the man himself. OR, there had to be another session to record the verse and the scat for him to hear a finsihed version of that original concept of H&V (Barnyard Billy) and then erase it.

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Couldn't have been much pre-December apart from that vocal session. The boys were away in Europe until the last day of November, I believe.

However, the "Barnyard" backing vocals and animal sounds were tracked at some point -- someone here has suggested Brian laid down the backing vox himself at the Oct. 20th session or anytime thereafter and the barn sounds were added in December -- i forget why they thought this, but who knows?

All I know is: there's that one H&V session in December, then the new "insert" is cut, and ALL THE OTHER SESSIONS in late December/early january, including the omnibus Jan. 3rd session, carry the master number of that insert on Dec. 19th.

Suggesting, to me anyway, a remake had begun.

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Were there any H&V vocals sessions before December 19th?

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So, if there was finished version that Brian was not satisfied and it had to be before the track list was handed in (because "Great Shape" would have been a part of that original mixdown, but was separated on the track list), then when were the lead vocals cut for the first version (Verse-Scat-Great Shape-Barnyard)? This is not just for Jon. Anyone who knows anything , please help.



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